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Shoshana Zuboff Explains Why You Should Care About Privacy

michael barbaro

From The New York Times, I’m Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily.

[music]

Today, the story of how a seemingly routine software replace turned a significant battle within the long-running conflict between Apple and Facebook. Astead Herndon spoke with our colleague, Mike Isaac, about what’s on the coronary heart of the battle and why the stakes have develop into so excessive for each corporations.

It’s Tuesday, May 11.

astead herndon

So Mike, are you able to inform me about this factor that Apple premiered the opposite day? It appeared fairly small, however from what I’m gathering, it’s not that small.

mike isaac

Yeah. So the opposite day, Apple rolls out this advert that appears fairly innocuous, I assume, at first look.

archived recording (girl)

When you’re utilizing apps in your iPhone, you could begin to see this. It’s the brand new App Tracking Transparency immediate.

mike isaac

There’s this nice-sounding girl’s voice telling people, hey, we’re going to introduce this new software. And you may begin noticing this immediate on the iPhone once you open sure apps.

archived recording (girl)

—a alternative on how apps use and share your information.

mike isaac

It’ll say you may permit apps to trace you, or you may ask them to not observe you.

archived recording (girl)

—information like your age, location, well being info, spending habits, and your shopping historical past, to call a number of.

mike isaac

They principally stroll people via this concept that—

archived recording (girl)

—they gather hundreds of items of details about you to create a digital profile that they promote to others.

mike isaac

Some apps on the iPhone are constructing total profiles of knowledge on you and monitoring your conduct throughout totally different apps moderately than once you’re utilizing the apps themselves.

archived recording (girl)

This has been occurring with out your information or permission. Your info is on the market. You have develop into the product.

mike isaac

And what Apple is doing is actually very kindly stating—

– ^archived recording (girl)^

That’s why iPhone customers will now be requested a single, easy question— permit apps to trace you or not?

mike isaac

Here’s a button that you should utilize that may put proper in entrance of you once you open the app to show all that off. And for the primary time, you’ll find it with out having to dig into your settings. And look how nice it’s that we’re placing this in entrance of you.

archived recording (girl)

We consider that you must have a alternative. App Tracking Transparency— a easy new characteristic that places your information again in your management.

mike isaac

And appears superb, no matter. OK. But over at Facebook, they begin freaking out and dropping their minds over this.

[music]
astead herndon

So why is Facebook freaking out?

mike isaac

I imply, as a result of Apple is principally, for the primary time, giving the hundreds of thousands of people who use iPhones a very easy option to decide out of advertisers utilizing their information to trace them throughout the web. And for Facebook, that’s principally your complete business mannequin of how Facebook operates. Facebook’s entire business is monitoring you throughout the web to make the adverts which are served to you essentially the most correct as attainable. You can consider Facebook’s precise clients as advert corporations and advertisers who pay to put adverts in your feed and my feed after we use the app.

astead herndon

Targeted adverts have develop into part of our lives. I take into consideration how Instagram feeds me ads for sneakers and crops and matching jumpsuits as a result of they’ve been monitoring me throughout these different apps. So you’re saying if I click on this button, would that be saying that I not needed that?

mike isaac

I didn’t know you have been a jumpsuit man. But no, I feel corporations like Facebook, which owns Instagram, they are saying they observe you so as to make your customized promoting expertise even higher. And so that you see the adverts you need to see in your feed. What I feel Apple is getting at right here is actually making that change extra in your face, principally, saying, look, that is one thing that has been happening. If you need to decide out of it, that’s superb, however you must a minimum of have the selection to take action. So this basic factor can now go away with this software replace and with the clicking of a button that individuals push after they open up the app. And that’s existential. That’s the entire ballgame for Facebook’s business.

astead herndon

So that’s how Facebook sees this transfer by Apple, however are they proper? Should we consider this as Apple immediately focusing on Facebook?

mike isaac

I imply, I feel so. Basically, that is the most important in an extended line of long-simmering back-and-forths between the company as they’ve been in a chilly conflict for the previous 10 years.

astead herndon

A chilly conflict? I didn’t know that. What do you imply?

mike isaac

So rewind again to 2010, 2011 period of Facebook and Apple coexisting with each other. At this level, they’re removed from enemies. They’re really fairly pleasant. Steve Jobs and Mark Zuckerberg would go on these lengthy walks within the apricot groves in Silicon Valley, and it was very— mentor-mentee kind of factor. I feel Jobs was seen as an elder statesman on the time to younger founders, particularly like Mark.

Facebook is that this up-and-coming company utilized by lots of of hundreds of thousands of individuals. Apple has created the preferred shopper gadget utilized by hundreds of thousands of individuals. And they basically have a sort of complementary relationship, actually a symbiotic relationship. You can’t use the iPhone with out apps like Facebook, and you’ll’t entry apps like Facebook with out a nice smartphone to do it. And Apple was the one to supply it. And actually, at this level, they appeared removed from any kind of antagonism in the direction of each other. But over time, they began sort of taking part in in one another’s areas.

If you bear in mind 2010, 2011— this was the time that I moved from my Blackberry to getting an precise smartphone then. I bear in mind I purchased an iPhone particularly to start out utilizing Instagram, which is sort of embarrassing. But this was when everybody was making that change. And Mark Zuckerberg, he realized, I don’t personal the working system. We will all the time be subservient to Apple’s guidelines or to Google’s guidelines, and we have to change that. So he finally ends up creating their very own smartphone, which Apple kind of is like, oh, OK, now you’re in our business now. Or one other occasion was principally messaging. Apple’s iMessage was utilized by lots of of hundreds of thousands of individuals, and Facebook desires to be an proprietor of messaging companies too. And so they begin competing in little areas that didn’t appear as apparent earlier than.

astead herndon

So initially, these are two corporations and two C.E.O.s that consider themselves as very distinct, have an excellent relationship. But you’re saying there’s a change within the trade that pushed them nearer and nearer to at least one one other the place they’re now making companies that they see as immediately aggressive to at least one one other.

mike isaac

Yeah, one hundred pc. Another factor that occurs round this time is that Steve Jobs, the founding father of Apple, passes away. He dies of pancreatic most cancers. And his successor, Tim Cook, his quantity two, is available in and takes over the business. And Tim Cook is a really totally different C.E.O. He doesn’t really feel that individuals’s information and data must be combed via by promoting corporations and information brokers who need to use that you just serve you adverts. And I feel that these two corporations that may have had a pleasant relationship, that turns into slightly bit icier, I’d say. But I actually assume the crux of the turning level for these two corporations got here in 2016, 2017.

[music]
archived recording (reporter)

For months, Facebook has been beneath mounting strain to be extra clear after revelations Russia used its platform to attempt to meddle within the 2016 election.

mike isaac

So Donald Trump was elected president on the finish of 2016, after which slowly, info begins popping out about what position Facebook performed in that election.

archived recording (mark zuckerberg)

One of my best regrets in operating the company is that we have been gradual in figuring out the Russian info operations in 2016.

mike isaac

People begin discovering, oh, Facebook was used as a conduit for misinformation round how Americans take into consideration one another.

archived recording (reporter)

They say a Russian group posted greater than 80,000 instances throughout and after the election marketing campaign.

archived recording (man)

A bunch that claimed to be a part of Texas however was, in truth, paid for by Russians in rubles.

archived recording (reporter)

Those adverts, with a price ticket of $100,000, pushed divisive social points from immigration to race and homosexual rights.

mike isaac

And then there’s the Cambridge Analytica state of affairs.

archived recording (reporter)

Cambridge Analytica drilled deep, in search of a trove of social media information on Americans to assist Republican presidential campaigns fine-tune their messages and win votes.

mike isaac

So again in 2018, The Times reveals what is actually a knowledge leak in Facebook’s business.

archived recording (reporter)

Starting in 2014, Cambridge Analytica funded a persona check on Facebook and paid folks to take it. Once a person answered questions, the app captured their buddy’s info too. The New York Times has seen a portion of the uncooked information concerned on this breach, so we all know it exists. And we now have each cause to consider it’s nonetheless within the fingers of Cambridge Analytica regardless of their denials.

mike isaac

Cambridge Analytica was this important second the place Facebook was basically pilloried by your complete world for being simply completely reckless with person information. And I feel that actually had an impact on Cook and on people at Apple. I feel that actually poisoned their thought of what Facebook was. It’s not this idyllic little company the place they’re simply making an attempt to attach the world and make every thing pollyannish. I feel it turned a darker factor. And at that time, Apple determined not solely is privateness necessary to us, we’re going to make {that a} cornerstone of how we market ourselves in comparison with different corporations like Facebook.

astead herndon

Can you clarify why particularly Apple would care that Facebook was on this contentious second?

mike isaac

I feel there’s the personal after which the skilled. One, I feel Tim Cook really does have a distaste for Facebook’s business mannequin at its core. But I additionally assume there’s actually knowledgeable business cause for doing this. And I used to be speaking to a Silicon Valley exec a number of months in the past, and principally, they advised me, look, in case your competitor is on the ropes like Facebook is, you’re taking a punch at them. You take a shot at them. And basically, you hit them whereas they’re down as a result of you can also make your company look higher on the identical time. And I feel there was a part of Apple that acknowledged we now have a chance right here. And if we will use ourselves as a foil in opposition to, quote unquote, the invasive, data-hungry company that’s Facebook, we will find yourself trying a lot better right here. And that’s precisely what they did.

astead herndon

So what does Apple really do, then, to capitalize on Facebook’s second of weak point presently?

mike isaac

So principally, Apple has these occasions each year the place they preview their software. And one year, they trot out these new options. One of them is for Safari, their internet browser. It principally says, we’re going to kill off monitoring cookies in Safari. What which means is actually, in the event you use the cell internet browsers on Apple’s telephones, we’re not going to let corporations like Facebook or Google observe you across the web utilizing these internet browsers.

astead herndon

Thank you for explaining cookies. I’ve by no means understood that my entire life.

mike isaac

I did my job for one. Yeah. And that was positively an enormous transfer. That was Apple saying, look, we’re cracking down on monitoring in our internet browsers. Safari is utilized by hundreds of thousands, if not billions, of people that have iPhones around the globe. The different factor that they do is— I don’t know in the event you bear in mind when Screen Time got here out, principally the factor that tells us how horrible we’re for being on our telephone all week. They particularly launched this product saying, we now have a technique to maintain you in your telephone much less. And within the demo, I consider they used Instagram as the instance app saying, basically, you spent means an excessive amount of time on Instagram this week. Maybe you could sit back slightly bit. And inside Facebook, individuals are like, what? What are you doing? Why are you focusing on us? Where is that this coming from? So they’ve these Easter eggs of their shows and stuff and a side-eyed model of a tech struggle for a short time, however then I feel it will get extra overt.

archived recording (man)

From Chicago, that is Revolution, Apple altering the world.

mike isaac

Tim Cook goes on MSNBC.

archived recording (kara swisher)

Tim, thanks for coming. I feel they’re all excited to get new iPhones from you.

mike isaac

One of our colleagues, Kara Swisher, really is interviewing him at this level and says, Zuckerberg is getting hauled into Congress, they usually’re getting basically questioned for his or her position within the 2016 election and the way they use information. And the host asks—

archived recording (kara swisher)

If you have been Mark Zuckerberg, what would you do?

archived recording (tim cook dinner)

What would I do?

mike isaac

And Cook, with out lacking a beat, says—

archived recording (tim cook dinner)

I wouldn’t be on this state of affairs.

archived recording (kara swisher)

OK.

mike isaac

I wouldn’t be on this state of affairs. Basically—

astead herndon

Wow.

mike isaac

Basically, that’s not us. That’s not what we do.

archived recording (tim cook dinner)

We’re not going to site visitors in your personal life. I feel it’s an invasion of privateness. Privacy, to us, is a human proper. It’s a civil liberty. And it’s one thing that’s distinctive to America.

mike isaac

We consider that privateness is a basic human proper. And that’s principally like saying, in contrast to Facebook, we really care about your privateness.

astead herndon

That appears extra express.

mike isaac

Right. And at that time, Mark Zuckerberg responds.

archived recording (mark zuckerberg)

The actuality right here is that if you wish to build a service that helps join everybody on the planet, then there are lots of people who can’t afford to pay.

mike isaac

He goes on The Ezra Klein Show and principally throws it again in Cook’s face and says—

archived recording (mark zuckerberg)

I imply, look, if you wish to build a service which isn’t simply serving wealthy folks, then you could have one thing that individuals can afford.

mike isaac

The entire level of promoting is that we’re making our service free, and also you don’t should pay $1,200 or no matter exorbitant worth to make use of our product, in contrast to another corporations in Cupertino, California, principally making the case that Facebook is the widespread man’s social community, free to make use of, and everybody can get pleasure from it. Just be prepared to be focused by customized promoting.

archived recording (mark zuckerberg)

I feel it’s necessary that we don’t all get Stockholm syndrome and let the businesses that work exhausting to cost you extra persuade you that they really care extra about you, as a result of that sounds ridiculous to me.

mike isaac

So they commerce some extra photographs within the press. And then in 2019, either side assume they should have a chat. They want to come back to phrases and are available to a peace between one another. And each year, there’s this retreat referred to as Sun Valley that, principally, all of the billionaires go to to commune with each other. And so Tim Cook and Mark Zuckerberg and their respective groups resolve that is the place we’re going to hash it out. So they get collectively on this room with a small group of executives from each corporations. And Mark principally says to Tim, what would you do on this state of affairs? The entire world is coming down on us. What would you do? And Tim’s response is actually, I feel you must delete each little bit of details about folks that you just’ve collected outdoors of your fundamental Facebook apps.

astead herndon

Wow.

mike isaac

Yeah. He’s principally telling Mark, in so many phrases, your total business mannequin is busted. And you could repair it by destroying a minimum of half of it. One individual stated that Mark appeared shocked. The C.E.O. of Apple telling you that your entire business mannequin is damaged and unsuitable in all probability wasn’t one of the best ways to start out out peace talks on this summit that they have been alleged to have.

astead herndon

It doesn’t seem to be somebody who’s very serious about a peace speak to reply in such a vogue.

mike isaac

Right. And so the following factor that Tim Cook does—

archived recording (tim cook dinner)

Together, we should ship a common humanistic response to those that declare a proper to customers’ non-public details about what shouldn’t and won’t be tolerated.

mike isaac

—is announce this App Tracking Transparency characteristic.

archived recording (tim cook dinner)

At its basis, ATT is about returning management to customers, about giving them a say over how their information is dealt with.

mike isaac

—that Facebook feels, rightly, is focused immediately at Facebook and its business.

archived recording (tim cook dinner)

Some could properly assume that sharing this diploma of knowledge is price it for extra focused adverts. Many others, I think, won’t. If a business is constructed on deceptive customers, on information exploitation—

[music]
michael barbaro

We’ll be proper again.

astead herndon

All proper. So Mike, Apple premieres this new privateness initiative that Facebook takes as a direct assertion of competitors. What occurs subsequent?

mike isaac

Facebook begins actually combating again. For the previous few years at this level, Facebook has been on the ropes. Apple has been the one throwing all the actual punches. And Facebook basically says, look, in the event you’re going after our business, in the event you’re going to the jugular at this level, we’ve received to do one thing.

archived recording (reporter)

Facebook simply now publishing a weblog put up saying it’s talking up on behalf of small companies, saying, quote, “we believe Apple is behaving anti-competitively by—”

archived recording (man)

This looks like a really perilous escalation that Facebook is pushing right here. Maybe they should as a result of what Apple plans to do strikes on the core of Facebook’s business mannequin.

archived recording (girl)

What they’re saying is that when you get rid of that sort of focusing on, then the adverts simply don’t develop into as useful anymore, which is—

mike isaac

So Facebook begins speaking to all its advertisers and loads of the small companies on the platform who purchase adverts on Facebook, principally saying, it is a large deal. Bad issues are coming for us. We have to push again on this. So it turns into corralling the advertisers and basically creating this public P.R. marketing campaign in opposition to Apple.

archived recording (monique wilsondebriano)

title is Monique Wilsondebriano. My husband and I are the founders and homeowners of Charleston Gourmet Burger Company. And in the present day, I need to speak to you in regards to the replace from Apple and the influence that it’ll have on small companies.

mike isaac

So Facebook is principally saying, we’re standing up for small companies.

archived recording (man)

We’re all pissed off. We’re all coping with Covid. Unfortunately, there’s this different factor that’s arising, which is an replace to Apple’s iOS.

mike isaac

Using our advert focusing on platform on Facebook is nice for the financial system, and it’s good for these small companies which are on the ropes.

archived recording (girl)

There is not any attainable means that our company may have reached the extent of success that it’s in the present day with out customized adverts.

mike isaac

We ought to all be pushing again in opposition to the massive, unhealthy Apple at this level.

[music]
astead herndon

The concept that this multibillion-dollar company in Facebook is portray itself as a champion for small business appears sort of odd to me. It looks like it will elevate some eyebrows. What are they doing there?

mike isaac

Yeah, you’re not alone there. But Facebook does have an precise level. Small companies make up nearly all of sellers on their platform. Small companies on Facebook do depend on advert focusing on instruments to principally promote themselves and market themselves throughout the web, particularly in the course of the pandemic when some retail outlets won’t have in any other case been capable of attain folks. So to some extent, there’s some extent there, even when it’s a really self-serving means of posturing themselves like Facebook is utilizing. But I feel the opposite factor that Facebook is making an attempt to level out right here is that this actually isn’t about privateness for Apple. This is basically them simply making an enormous energy transfer.

astead herndon

What do you imply there?

mike isaac

Well, they positioned themselves as privateness advocates and warriors, however people at Facebook are actually pissed off as a result of, as an example, Apple has an unlimited business in China. Vast quantities of iPhones are offered in China, which arguably some of the privacy-invasive governments and regimes on Earth, the place the contract is that they monitor the behaviors of their residents. They’re capable of management what sorts of speech is being stated on-line. They can censor sure sorts of speech in opposition to the Chinese authorities. And one of many issues that Apple even needed to do to function in China was concede to a rule the Chinese authorities made the place iCloud information should be saved in mainland China moderately than servers within the U.S. or overseas in addition to the keys to that information saved in mainland China. So moderately than maybe pull out of China fully, which is a technique they might have gone, they basically needed to concede and say, that is how we function. This is how we now have to do it so as to keep right here.

So simply in working in China, Apple is being hypocritical in and of itself, some Facebook execs would say. Another level is Apple has this humongous search take care of Google that has lasted for years. Basically, in the event you open up your iPhone, Google search really powers loads of the issues underlying in Apple’s software. So Siri is powered by Google search. So it can provide you solutions immediately as a result of Apple simply doesn’t have the search prowess of a few of these corporations like Google. And Google is simply as privacy-invasive as Facebook, people would say. You’re superb with getting in mattress with Google, however for some cause, Facebook is the massive unhealthy man right here.

astead herndon

It appears as in the event that they’re saying, Apple is situationally trying the opposite means when it’s a bonus to them.

mike isaac

Yeah, completely. And on high of that, you may have Apple principally deciding to slowly beef up its present small promoting business. Not many individuals know that Apple have an precise promoting business, nevertheless it’s vital. It’s inside the App Store. You can basically promote in opposition to searches for apps inside Apple’s retailer. So it’s not an enormous business for Apple, however nonetheless, it’s this factor the place corporations like Facebook see Apple cracking down on the sorts of monitoring and promoting capabilities of different corporations whereas concurrently enhancing Apple’s personal promoting business. And they scratch their head. They say, what’s up with that?

astead herndon

If Apple has these offers with Google and with China, if it’s making this advert expertise that’s much like what Facebook has, what then was the upside for them portraying themselves as a champion of privateness? Why did they make that alternative if Facebook was going to come back again and say, hey, however you’re doing the identical factor too?

mike isaac

I feel on the finish of the day, Apple’s argument is stronger. It is simpler for folks to determine with, oh, hey, privateness is an efficient factor. I would favor to be tracked much less on my telephone and in my actions than extra. And Facebook’s argument is simply, frankly, extra nebulous. We’re standing up for small companies. Therefore, we now have to trace you, otherwise you shouldn’t be offered the choice to decide out of being tracked. That doesn’t actually observe, so to talk, I assume. And so I feel on the finish of the day, Apple principally can wield this bigger membership of we advocate for privateness. We care about not monitoring your information for essentially the most half. And the typical shopper in all probability doesn’t know or care a couple of Google search deal or the search adverts in Apple’s App Store which are fairly within the weeds and largely cared about by companies and advert tech folks.

astead herndon

OK. So that is only a calculated advertising factor from Apple. And it appears in the way in which that you just’re describing that they is likely to be pulling this off, that they’re each interesting to a buyer that, on the floor, cares about privateness with issues like this new software that they’ve launched, whereas on the identical time, they’re increasing their companies in ways in which compete with Facebook, compete with Instagram, and assist them make money on the opposite facet even when it goes in opposition to these privateness targets.

mike isaac

I completely agree. And I the— that is one thing I’ve requested myself for a very long time, this paradox of, do folks care about privateness? Do regular people who’re utilizing their computer systems or their smartphones or who aren’t steeped in tech jargon all day like I is likely to be— is that this one thing that they really are involved with? My guess is that they don’t like the thought of one thing monitoring them throughout the web. The thought that somebody’s watching you always is uncomfortable. I don’t like that. At the identical time, individuals are utilizing Facebook and Instagram in report numbers. Facebook did— I need to say $27 billion of income within the final quarter alone. They’re shattering information for person development and income numbers each quarter. So there’s this rigidity, I feel, in customers the place we would like privateness, we gravitate in the direction of this concept that we shouldn’t be tracked, however we additionally need the comfort and the leisure that loads of these apps deliver. So I do assume there’s a rigidity in it, and I feel Apple is capitalizing on that rigidity to some extent.

astead herndon

So it looks like the general public will go so far as to click on on that button and block these apps from monitoring them in lots of circumstances, however not so far as to throw their entire iPhone away or get off the web or the apps which are monitoring them altogether. So Apple nonetheless wins, and their rivals nonetheless lose due to a single button.

mike isaac

I imply, I feel that’s proper. The App Tracking Transparency immediate simply rolled out very lately. Facebook remains to be in a watch and wait interval, as are these different promoting corporations. They need to see how folks behave. The means that the immediate is framed, it’s fairly in all probability probably that individuals are going to decide out of it.

astead herndon

It’s like a type of main ballot questions that claims, would you want this good factor to occur to you? Yeah, certain.

mike isaac

Exactly. Of course I do. And I feel that’s what Facebook is anticipating— everybody to be like, in fact I don’t need to be tracked. And that’s sort of what we’re seeing already. There’s a survey or two floating round that claims most customers on iOS are opting out of this monitoring possibility. So I feel Apple wins this spherical. What I’m interested in are the fights to come back.

astead herndon

What are a few of these?

mike isaac

Yeah, look, these corporations struggle one another in loads of totally different grounds. Messaging is one in all them, gaming, podcasting. I feel one huge one that could be a actual question mark is V.R. and A.R., digital actuality and augmented actuality. Both Apple and Facebook have secret wings by which they do all this high-tech improvement. And I feel that’s going to be the battle of the following 5 to 10 years for each of them. And that’s nonetheless very a lot up within the air. All of the tech corporations are basically converging into this one space by which they compete with each other. The days of 2010, 2011 the place they fortunately coexisted as pleasant corporations the place the C.E.O. of Google may sit on Apple’s board, they usually all have been pleasant moderately than frenemies and even outright enemies, these are lengthy over.

astead herndon

Why did which have to vary? Everyone was making a ton of money. Everyone was rising their business. Why was that not passable?

mike isaac

I take into consideration this quite a bit. I really feel prefer it’s actually basic to how Silicon Valley operates. I feel everybody likes to compete. If you aren’t increasing into a brand new territory, which means your competitor is, and also you’re ceding territory. All of the businesses in Silicon Valley principally see an area and go after it. And in the event you’re not doing it, which means another person is. It says one thing about Silicon Valley. It says one thing about capitalism. It says one thing about how these C.E.O.s assume and act. But competitors is basically the one code I feel these C.E.O.s out right here actually reside and abide by. And there’s no actual guidelines round it aside from you compete to win. And all of them simply respect that as that’s how it’s out right here.

astead herndon

Right. I’m asking why was it unsatisfactory to every preserve the slice of the pie, and also you’re saying that Silicon Valley is structured that— our financial system is structured in a means the place these people need the entire pie.

mike isaac

Yeah, go huge or go house.

[music]

I don’t desire a slice of the pie. I need the entire pie. That’s precisely what they’re saying.

astead herndon

Thank you, Mike. I admire your time.

mike isaac

Yeah. Thanks for having me.

[music]
michael barbaro

We’ll be proper again.

Here’s what else you could know in the present day.

Weeks of unrest in Jerusalem became a wider battle on Monday when militants in Gaza fired rockets towards the town, and the Israeli army responded with airstrikes. Officials in Gaza stated that a minimum of 20 folks have been killed by the Israeli counterattack. The violence is tied to an try by Israelis to evict Palestinian households from their houses in East Jerusalem to make room for Jewish settlers.

[non-english chanting]

For many, these evictions have develop into a logo of the broader historic battle between Israelis and the Palestinians and since April has prompted offended clashes between Palestinians and Israeli police within the streets of East Jerusalem.

Today’s episode was produced by Stella Tan, Michael Simon Johnson, Diana Nguyen, and Eric Krupke. It was edited by Paige Cowett and engineered by Chris Wood.

[music]

That’s it for The Daily. I’m Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.

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